Phil Treadwell: All right. Welcome to the Mortgage Marketing Expert podcast. I'm your host Phil Treadwell. Mortgage Marketing Expert is a proud founding member of Industry Syndicate podcast network. Our mortgage marketing expert today is Michael Athens. Michael spent the last 10 years helping realtors and lenders, increase reviews, referrals and create raving fans through intentional client appreciation and retention gifts. He owns a company Gifts With An Edge. Michael, I'm super excited to have you on the podcast.

Michael Athens: Thank you so much for having me Phil.

Phil Treadwell: Yeah, man. I'm glad you could make it. I think this is going to be a cool topic today for people because it's something that's not talked about as much as it should. My industry syndicate partner, Dustin Brohm, and I talked about a similar topic on his podcast last Christmas because it was the gift giving time. So I think middle of the year is a good time to be talking about this. But before we get too far into that, take a second and talk about your background, how you got in the business and what you're up to these days.

Michael Athens: Yeah, so we'll get into it later. But I actually am an independent contractor with Cutco. And that's actually the only thing I've ever really done in my life. I came out of high school back in '09. So I'm a young one for those of you who are listening, but I it was kind of a crazy time where no one was hiring and one day I got a letter in the mail that was like, “Hey, you want to come sell knives?” And I was like, “Well, no one else is hiring. Let me do this.” I didn't think I would do well at it. I was the person that was scared to call the pizza company to order pizza or anything like that, did not think of myself as a salesperson at all. And fell in love with it really because it kind of has that entrepreneurial style behind it.

And I should have known, since I was a kid that was starting lawn mowing services in my neighborhood and trying to sell stuff to my friends at lunchtime at school and all this stuff. And that's something that I did not expect to do at all, ended up being a really good fit and gave me some really awesome kind of sales tools. Taught me how to go out and create referrals out of nowhere, how to create a business out of nowhere, how to present products and things like that. And I was expecting to just do something that I would do during college, earn some money, earn some scholarships, things like that.

And one day, I went to a conference and one of the higher ups was talking about this thing called the "Realtor program", where instead of me going into someone's home and going, “Hey, Mrs. Jones, you want to spend $1000 on knives?” It's, “Hey, Mr. Realtor, you're already spending $100 per gift on clients. What if we did something to personalize a really awesome gift that they could use forever?” And instead of having to find a budget with someone in their home, I was able to just take someone else's budget and optimize it to something that was, did some pretty cool things, but we'll talk about that later. But ever since then, all I've done is work with Realtors, lenders, other businesses to help them find ways to really create a raving fan experience, to make them stand out amongst the other. And, really create fans for life.

Phil Treadwell: That's awesome and I love it. I think everybody in the mortgage real estate industry has had experienced or has had some conversations with someone that works at Cutco. It's a great company. I've got Cutco knives. I had several friends in high school and college that also sold the product. But I think that the bigger conversation here that I want to make sure people understand is, whenever you're giving gifts, you want to give people gifts that they're going to remember you or that you can stay top of mind and this for me, was very apparent about 5 or 6 years ago. My wife and I were opening a bottle of wine and the fancy one we bought from Bed Bath & Beyond or whatever had busted.

I was digging through the drawer and I found a wine opener and used it and realized it was from a mortgage company, a lender that I had brokered loans through and I thought, these are the type of gifts that people put in their drawer that are functional, that are useful, that you don't just throw in the garbage, right? There's lots of gifts that, the little stress balls and random pins and pads and things. People might use them a little bit, but a lot of times they just end up in the garbage. And so, that's kind of the direction I want to take this conversation, is what the trend of trying to offer value. We do that a lot through content through social media, but now this is through gift giving and creating raving fans and creating intentionality around how you build those relationships. So from your experience, kind of talk for a second, what have you seen as far as trends of Realtors, lenders that are having success, giving gifts of any kind? What types of things are they doing? What are some things that other professionals can pay attention to really kind of piggyback on this and get some lift in their business?

Michael Athens: Yeah, well, I think the biggest thing is just for one, having a plan. There's so many people out there that unfortunately, they're literally not even contacting their clients after closing at all. Maybe they have them on an email drip or a campaign or something like that, but they're not actually fostering that relationship after. So the really big thing is, for one, if you just start with the minimum, just doing small little things, calling your clients, writing them handwritten notes, cost you nothing, but those little touches will do things to create an experience for the client where they go, oh, they do actually care for me now that they've already received their check. It's not they weren't just here for that.

And it's that bare minimum, that 99% of people in the industry aren't doing, like, they're not even doing that. And so if you can start there. That's huge. Some of the crazy statistics, 70% of people leave their salesperson just because they feel like their salesperson doesn't care about them. They’re indifferent. And that really gets proved when the conversation ends at closing, as opposed to that's the beginning of the relationship. Before that, it was about helping them achieve that first goal, but now it's we're together and it's we're a family no. How do I show my clients that I care about them, that I'm still here to support them? It wasn't just, hey, we got you in the home or hey, we got you that funding. and now it's done.

How can I show them that I honestly care about them as a human being, and just that alone, takes it to another level, like specific tactics and things, with gifts to take it to another level? One of the biggest things that most people probably wouldn't have thought about is we see huge success by not giving a gift at the closing table. And there are a couple reasons behind this. For one, there's just so much going on. This is such a huge emotional point in the relationship with the client. If all this paperwork to sign, they're dealing with so much fear and buyer's remorse, all these issues, emotions while having to sign hundreds of papers.  

So when you give them a gift, no matter how good it is, no matter how personal it is, whatever it is, they're going to go, "Okay, cool." And they're going to continue thinking about all the things that are going on in their head, because that's what's going on. If there's too much going on, it gets lost in the noise.

So just simply by bringing it, by three days later, bringing it by a week later, we do where things are drop-shipped to clients to make it easy. Things like that, where it's a separate event. Just gives the client space to relax and really go, oh, wow. Okay, they thought about this a lot. It wasn't just they grabbed something and they wanted to appease me because I got my $5,000 commission or whatever.

It's something that they have time to breathe and to relax and to really go, “Okay, wow, this is really cool.” And I think that's one of the big things, just giving the client a little bit of space for them. 

And the same thing like you were talking about holiday gifts. I definitely don't recommend giving your gifts in the month of December if you're doing holiday gifts, because, for one, everyone else is already giving them gifts. There's just so many things going on. So what if we gave them a Valentine's Day gift, it's out of the blue, something that's unexpected. That way you can stand out amongst everybody else, especially if you give them something that's either really personalized, really valuable, or something that really creates an emotional impact for them.

And then that would be the other thing, nobody likes getting gift cards, even if they're going to use it. They're not excited about it. It's not like I hear so many times you're like, well, I know they needed to redo that bathroom. So I got them Home Depot gift card. They needed to redo the bathroom. They're gonna do it no matter what. And they may appreciate it. I mean, who doesn't like it, give me a gift. If you want to give me a gift, they'll totally accept it. But in terms of creating a powerful moment for your client and creating a real emotional connection with them, it just doesn't do it. Same thing with bottles of wine or the gift baskets, they feel like a token gift.

Phil Treadwell: Right. 

Michael Athens: And how can we go to something that feels like you thought about it and you cared about them and it's something that is going to create a long-lasting impression on the client. I think those are kind of the two easiest simple things, is how can you make it something impactful, and the timing of it and the messaging of it, how can we change that to make it more impactful as well.

Phil Treadwell: Yeah, I think you're exactly right. Especially at closing that's a very unique thing. I want to make sure to point out for people not giving them a gift right at closing. I think that there's some merit to that, and I'm sure there'll be a descent view of, hey, that's the time you do it. But if you can do it after then that's another opportunity to touch them after the fact. Right? There is a lot going on. A lot of people have workflows where they're asking for reviews, they're asking for referrals. There is a lot going on last minute at closing and sometimes it does lose some of its luster if you will, and so that's a great opportunity to find a reason to follow up back with the client. And like you said, in the mortgage industry, the client retention historically over the last 10 or 15 years has been very, very low.

And so there are lots of opportunities. And we talk a lot on this podcast and there's a lot of content out there around how do you add value with technology systems, say for Homebot, for example, or Mortgage Coach and MBS Highway, things that you're adding value financially and helping people build financial health and create wealth through real estate and home ownership. 

But I think there's two people that you want to create a relationship between being, or it could be multiple people, between the lender, the Realtor, and the buyers but you're wanting to create relationships with those people. And on a human level, sometimes a very nice thoughtful gift goes as much or more than any of the shiny object technology that we have, which is why a handwritten card still gets so much weight, a phone call gets so much weight in an age of instant messaging, direct messaging, text messaging, email messaging.

Sending a card, picking up the phone really creates impact. Well, that's why this conversation around retention gifts for the transaction or and I'll take it to another direction for those of us out there that are recruiting or trying to hire new talent, whether that's other Realtors, other loan officers, even support staff, operations staff, sometimes those gifts or anniversary gifts or welcome to the company gifts, gifts can be a very, very important part of how you attract and wow people. 

What are your thoughts just kind of on some of the other spaces, the other ways that people can create excitement and create attention and engagement through gifts outside of just closing gift or holiday gifts or you have clients that are doing them for recruiting purposes or thank you gifts or things of that nature.

Michael Athens: Yeah, so we're recording this now and in June, and it was amazing to see over the last couple months how many companies came and ordered gifts for their employees while they were stuck at home with COVID. And they're saying, “Hey, everyone's at home, they're all cooking right now. Let's give them something, personalized for them.” Thanks for being such an amazing team member, handcrafted especially for you Jim and Cindy, whatever it is, and they give them just that little touch. Like it's not something they needed to do, but it was something that goes and says, "Hey, we know things are weird right now. We want to give you something just to say, Hey, we appreciate you. We thank you for sticking through us with this process.”

I definitely love the idea of the anniversary gift. I love ideas of just kind of having things come sporadically throughout the year. One of my favorites is having something come just as a surprise within that first hundred days. I don't know if you've ever read the book, Never Lose a Customer Again. It's an absolute must read by Joey Coleman. It talks about how 20 to 70% of people essentially decide, but it's usually mostly subconsciously decide, that they're not going to do business with someone within those first hundred days. 20 to 70%, it’s crazy. And it's actually I don't know what the stats are for lenders, but for Realtors, it's ridiculous that people within a couple months, or at closing, where they say, yes, I 100% will use that Realtor again. I'm going to send them to all my friends. It's 80% of people say that.  

And then the stats are that less than 12% actually do. And usually it's because they just feel abandoned after that point.

So like you're talking about the one of the best, ROI tools you can use is a handwritten thank you note. As you said, it's, it's simple. It's not copy and pasted. You can do all that, like, print your handwriting and stuff like that. But people can tell me just take the time to write a handwritten note, especially if it's, "Hey, what I love about you..." is my favorite phrase in the world. If you can put what I love about you, what I see in you is this, what I appreciate is this, and you can put that in a thank you note, that is powerful. It costs a buck for the card and 40 cents to send it. And that is huge. 

I'm a big fan of that, especially throughout the process. So it's not just what do we do after but it's that whole process of how do we create a client experience at every point during the journey. So you say, you have that first consultation with them, and they say, yep, I want to work together. Let's do this, and you got the next time frame before they find the house and need the lending and all that stuff. A handwritten note that gets dropped in the mail the day after you have that first conversation with them is huge, and then, another one after closing.  

But just finding those little ways to surprise and delight because people expect a gift at closing in these types of spaces. So for one, to add a caveat to that don't give them that at closing, make sure you say, "Hey, by the way, I have something coming for you either keep an eye out, or I'm gonna bring it by" so just something that it's like, “Hey, I know things are stressful right now. So I didn't want to add any more to this. Here's a thank you note. By the way, I'm going to be swinging by next week and bring the gift" or, "hey, something's coming in the mail, keep an eye out, you're going to love it." So something like that. But just creating those surprise and delight moments when it's unexpected, when it's something that's powerful. Like it just takes it to a whole another level.

Phil Treadwell: Yeah, that's a great tip. And I think that's the whole point of this conversation, is follow up, communication, opportunities to touch the customer, opportunities to create engagement with the customer, both before and after the transaction. 

All of us, I think, probably have some type of a CRM that has a long term drip or they get three to four to five touches a year, but it's an automated email and they know that, that there's not a lot of intentionality with that. And so that's why these types of conversations are important. Another part of this is that I want to kind of segue into the type of gifts, not only that you promote, and that a lot of your clients used, is you've also whenever people, we talk a lot about a brand, both the company brand and a personal brand and people understand that brand is typically about reputation.

And our reputation is something all of us hold dear. And we want to protect it and we want to hold it to a high standard. I think a lot of people when they think about promotional items and gifts, all of a sudden go for cheap, or they go for whatever is easiest. And they forget that if you're wanting to have a high quality brand, if you're wanting to hold that reputation high, what your gifts and promo items and things that you're giving away to your clients, customers, referral partners, all those types of things, they say a lot about the quality of the type of business that you do and the standard at which you hold yourself to. 

So with that being said, talk for a second about the types of gifts that you're getting a lot of success with clients or that the clients are having a lot of success with, some of your most popular ones and just kind of talk through, well, give people some ideas of some things that they could go out and do or some things that they should add to their retention gift arsenal.

Michael Athens: Yeah, well, I think that to boil this down to the biggest problem is how do you take the idea of having a system and how do you also make something feel personalized and feel important? Because that's the problem, scaling it. It's really easy if you got one client to go, okay, I'm going to scour through their Facebook. I'm gonna find what they love. I'm going to find what their family loves them and all that stuff. And I'm going to go get them that perfect thing. And that works perfectly until you hit that break point where you get to... I don't have time for this, and my assistant doesn't care enough to be able to do this perfectly or I have to add an assistant just to do this.

That what ends up costing. Especially since, I'm actually, I've been a certified The ONE Thing instructor, the Gary Keller, ONE Thing seminars, and it's not most people's one thing to go out and spend an hour buying and finding these gifts. So how can we create a system that feels right, that feels good, is creating those emotions, and it's scalable? And I think that's the hard part.

So, the biggest things would be, like you said, have it systematize in your database, where it's at these certain key points, whether it's through the transaction or post transaction? What are the key times that I need to touch my people?

How can I create value for them in either content, or introductions, or just talking and creating the relationship and for those gifts, that how do we create something that's scalable without feeling cheap and easy, because that's the reason most people go out and get the gift cards and gift baskets. But one is because they don't have the time to put in to do something awesome. So it's, "oh crap, my clothes in an hour. Well, I'm going to just go to Home Depot, or I'm just going to go grab this." And, that's really where the thing is. It's because it's no one wants to give something that's not gonna feel great and not going to create that relationship, but it's the time of it. 

So I would say the biggest thing is, find a way to systematize it, whether it's bringing someone on your team that just they're spending an hour, a week that's maintaining it.So hey schedule out those times. I want to touch them two times, with something fun in the first hundred days and I want to touch them on the anniversary and I want to touch them on their birthday. What are the different things I can do? 

So maybe it's a gift that comes sometime throughout that year or on the anniversary. Thank you notes, videos, calls, all those things. One of my favorites, a way to take that handwritten thank you note to another level is a metal thank you card. Have you ever seen any of those?

Phil Treadwell: I think so, Yeah

Michael Athens:Where it's a simple oh, yeah, like a pretty piece of sheet metal that's usually kind of engraved. But then you take a sharpie and you hand write on it. Right? And that's just a cool way to like, what the heck is this? 

Phil Treadwell: Yeah, it's about differentiation. It's about doing something that people aren't doing. So let's talk about Gifts With An Edge. Let's talk about some of the actual gifts that your clients are getting with their business, kind of give some examples of some things that people may want to look at investing in or using as part of their retention gift program and gift giving promotional item, whatever.

Michael Athens: Yeah, so there's kind of a couple different ways we've done things. So for the past decade or so, how most people got started with our program is they bought like a 6-month or 12-month supply gifts, and it's mostly Cutco products. 

So for those of you who don't know, it's the Rolex or the Tiffany's of the kitchen. They're super high quality. They're made in America. And actually, they've been made in America since 1949, so over 70 years, and they're actually guaranteed forever. Meaning, if your client fills it, it's sharpened for free. If they drop it and the tip breaks, melt the handle, whatever happens to it, is replaced for free forever.

So that's kind of the first thing, is how can we give them something that they'll use and love daily for the rest of their life. So how we've done is people would buy this small supply, we would engrave it with their logo, name, number, maybe a tagline and we would  send it to them upfront that at closing or shortly after they can hand it. 

Now, in the last year has been really transformational for us where we've done some really cool things. What has been really popular right now especially for my loan officers, is they'll set up either a single drop-ship gift or actually a full campaign of gifts where at the click of a button, they're done. They give us the clients information, we engrave it with "Handcrafted Especially for the Jones Family" on it. We can either put your info on the back or we can leave it blank if you just want to leave it for your clients and just focus on them, either way works for us.

Most my Realtors engrave their info on it, because otherwise they're only allowed to deduct $25. When we put their info on it, it makes it 100% tax deductible, which really adds up over the year. Since my lenders are W2s, it's kind of up to them, because most of them, they're not itemizing their receipts. 

So whether you want to have your info on there for them to call you or not. It's totally up to you. I'm a fan of doing it really nice and small on the backs that it's still there because I've heard so many stories of someone going, oh yeah, you got to call my lender, they're awesome. Or people buying it at a state sales and now they're getting, they're selling someone's home off of that and things like that.

But that's up to you. But essentially what we do is if you're doing a single gift, we schedule it to arrive 30 days after closing, got the clients name on it. It comes in a box with a handwritten thank you note that says, “Hey, Susie, thank you so much for the opportunity to work with us. It was our pleasure to be part of your home buying process.” I don't know if you're familiar with Cutco, but it's guaranteed forever and I want you to know that I will be forever at your fingertips for all your lending needs. Hey, “PS, give me a call so that I know you've got this.”

Phil Treadwell: Yes, that's awesome.

Michael Athens: So now rather than you chasing down your clients, calling them to get those reviews and get those referrals and get these things they're calling in to you at this high state of gratitude. Where it's super easy to first just build a relationship because that's the number one goal. But then it's oh, "hey, by the way, I'm really trying to grow my online presence. I've texted you a real quick review form. Would you mind filling it out for me? Or hey, I'm sure over the past 30 days you've been showing your home off to everyone both mentioned that they're trying to make a move."

So it creates space for the conversation where you're not calling them to ask. They’re calling you to thank you and then you have a small ask on the end if you want. So that's been powerful. 

The largest version of it, the most popular for my lenders right now is that [Knife] shows up 30 days later, a veteran made cutting board also handcrafted for them shows up six months after closing. And then we have an engraved wine opener that says "Time to Celebrate" on it, that shows up on the one year anniversary. 

And the cool thing because we're doing these personalized for every client is we can also personalize them where most, a lot of my letters are starting to co-brand gifts. So not only does it say, "With Gratitude, Your Realtor for Life" and your name and number. 

But you can also say "With Gratitude, Your Realtor and Lender for Life", and have both your information. And this has been really popular because not only are they now giving a better gift, because they're cutting their price in half (because they're splitting it with a Realtor), but in addition, they could say "Hey Realtor, got the gift taken care of, they're going to get three gifts over the next year, it's gonna be branded with your info, you don't have to think about it. Done!

And, that's really been kind of the most powerful right now. It's so unexpected to get those things and to have them with the messaging on it that ties it to, "hey, this is why I wanted to give you this. This is something I want it to be a legacy item for you because I'm gonna be here for you forever." And so it's been pretty impactful.

Phil Treadwell: So that's awesome. And there's a couple important whys behind this stuff that I want to make sure people caught. The products themselves are extremely high quality. Right? I personally have some Cutco knives. My parents have bought them for me and some of my friends when I was in high school in college. I'm familiar with the product. So I know it's high quality and that's kind of the messaging behind, do you want to give someone a high quality gift that took some thought, that maybe has some custom messaging? Or do you want to give them something cheap that you could have picked up at $1 store or, big box retailer. 

And then the other part of this is that there's some personality to it. You put their name on it. You make them tied to their homeThat's one of the first things people do when they buy a home is they get rugs that say, welcome to the Jones family or they get one of the signs that says, XYZ family established on this date. People really like to personalize it. And so I know that there's a lot of personal preference on the professional side of it of whether you want to put your logo on it, whether you want to put your lender information on it or things of that nature. I'm not here to preach to people one way or another. I think the point is, you can decide what fits your business, which fits your client base, your referral partner base. You can also use it as a way to partner with other referral partners and things of that nature.

And so, that's why I like gifts in general. I personally do really high quality beer and wine openers for the reasons that you talk about. You throw it in a drawer, you keep it has some messaging on it maybe has a logo on it. I personally, if I'm going to throw a recommendation out there wouldn't put a name and phone number on there just specifically because if you've done your job in creating a relationship with someone, they're going to look at that gift and think of you and know how to get a hold of you. And if they don't know how to get a hold of you, then you've missed the boat anyway, you've given a really expensive gift without doing some of the other intangibles, but I do like, I have heard some of the stories of people have been gifted a knife or bought it at an estate sale or something and got calls from it. So that is kind of cool. 

So there are arguments to be made both ways, but I want to make sure people understand, in this conversation, we're talking about an extension of yo,u an extension of your brand, and something that's representative of the relationship that you're trying to build with the client and customer. And I love that, having a six-month veteran made and then a time to celebrate wine opener. Those are really cool additions that I think sometimes people don't think about. 

So what are some other popular things that lenders, realtors, anybody is doing or gifts that they're giving, some other things that we can throw out to advise everybody.

Michael Athens: Yeah. So I mean, there's a lot out there. You see other companies that do, the branded type things, and they have some value behind them. When I think of the gifts, the five things I think about, and I actually have this guide, I'll give you my website at the end. But the five things that really turn a gift from just a token to something that is going to really create an impact on the client. 

First, something memorable, so something that stands out. It doesn't feel run of the mill. And so this is gonna weed out your gift cards and your bottles of wine unless it's a very specific bottle of wine for that client or something like that. So it's got to be memorable.

It's got to make them think of you, and part of the thing that goes along with that is tied in with it being memorable and also being long lasting, which is the next one. So I try to stay away from the things that are consumable, because even if it creates a big impact now, within weeks it's not in their memory, and that's not something we want. 

So whether it's something for the home, I like it to be useful. There's a lot of people going out and doing the pictures on the wall or the mats or things like that. And they're getting halfway there. My problem with that is now you're forcing the client to make a decision of do I want to display this, like it's almost forcing them into an imposition, versus something that they're just naturally going to fall in love with.

It should provide real value. And I think that's part of the useful thing, or if it's personalized, so can they either use it all the time and it's going to create value for them through that or did you go find about their favorite sports team and husband got this because it's his favorite sports team and wife got this because it's something that she cares about. She's super into gardening. So you got her, _______, I don't know what it is, but something that provides value to them. 

And then just something exciting. And some of you may be thinking, "I don't know if these knives would be exciting", but that's something you got to take our word for it or ask your friends that have it because it is one of those things where it may not seem exciting at the beginning, but when they've had it for a year, and they've had it for two years, and they've had it 20 years, and it's still sharp, or they've gotten that free replacement, free sharping, stuff like that. 

It's like oh, wow, because just most people have never had the best of the best in their kitchen or in their home. Not everyone is walking around with Rolexs, not everyone's driving Rolls Royce’s, any of that stuff so they don't know it upfront, but once they really experience it, it has a lot of wow behind it.

Phil Treadwell: That's awesome. Well, Michael, you've been a great guest, I want to be a good steward of your time. I want to ask one last question, we asked this of all of our guests. If you could just give one tip to mortgage professionals today to go out to use to build their business, what would it be?

Michael Athens: So what I would say is take a look at your process from the second you've come in contact with a client, no actual contact, not your marketing, they call you, they email you, they text you, whatever it is, from that point onwards to maybe a year, two years, three years out, and just maybe go one thing per month. And what is the process that happens in the first week, what is the process that happens in the second week, third week, and then it starts getting longer. What happens in the first month after closing? What happens in the next 5 months after closing? What happens in the next year? 

And just one thing per month, just take a look at [one of these time frames] and go, what can I do to create an amazing experience?

What is the thing that my client wishes I was doing, or hates that I'm doing that I need to stop, or something that I'm doing really good of and I just need to keep it and build on. 

What's one thing I can do to take me from having satisfied clients to raving fan clients? Because unfortunately, those satisfied clients, they're happy with you. They're in that 80%. And maybe they'll do business with you in the future. Maybe if someone asked them, hey, who's your lender? They'll say, hey, it's Phil.

But if you can take them into that raving fan clients. The people that will be walking down the street, they'll hear someone walk in the opposite direction, say lending and they'll go, "you need to call Phil. He is the best. He had the best process. I felt safe. I felt comfortable. I knew what was going on. He gave me these awesome gifts. He's written me these handwritten notes. Anytime I had a question, he sent me this video that explained everything."

When you can provide that level of customer experience where people are just so happy that they chose you, you'll never have to fight for new clients again.

Phil Treadwell: That's exactly right. And that's how you create super fans and those super fans become your advocates. And then that's how you create more deals. Michael, that's a great tip. We appreciate you sharing all that. If you would throw out websites, social media handles, anything you want to share with our audience so they can get to know you and get in contact, learn more about what you do.

Michael Athens: Yeah, so the website is And it has everything online there so you can take a look. If this is something you want to do, or just learn more about, it's a lot of times easier for us to have a 10-minute conversation rather than kind of looking on the site because everything is 100% customizable. 

How we deliver it, what it's delivered with, whether it has your information, the clients information, all of that is totally up to you. We will customize it for your business. So it's a lot of times easier to chat on the phone. You can kind of get ideas on the site. If you just want to have a conversation, you can set up time in my schedule on the site, or  Facebook me, Michael Athens like the city in Greece and I'm wearing a Cutco shirt. So it's super easy to find me. 

But yeah, I would love to have a conversation with you whether it's about gifts or whether it's just about creating ideas to wow your clients because there's so much you can do. And there's so few people doing any of it. That those small little steps, just one little thing, 1% better every time will make you leaps and bounds ahead of your competitors. And it'll make it more fun while you're doing it.

Phil Treadwell: Totally agree. Michael, I appreciate you being a great guest. We'll make sure and put all your information in the show notes. Great information on gifts, a lot of value for everybody. And I look forward to catching up again really soon.

Michael Athens: Sounds good. Thank you so much!